00:00:02:11 – 00:00:26:15
Katie
I grew up in a town of 165 people. I mean, my surroundings were 1500 acres of woods and we were decently free to wander around in there. The beauty of that kind of surrounding was that I didn’t realize until my later life, reflecting back at my childhood that the gift in that kind of upbringing was this unbridled creativity.

00:00:26:17 – 00:00:42:10
Katie
I mean, truly, the nature was just there, and whoever I was and whatever I was going to be, nature just greeted that.

00:00:42:11 – 00:01:13:19
Claudia
Hello and welcome back to Shift Happens. My name is Claudia Mahler, and I am your host. Today I’m starting with a note to self. As a podcaster, always have your microphone with you. Which today, obviously I do not have. But, we’ll be fine, because you can hear me. I am in conversation with Katie Anderson, a successful and awarded entrepreneur in water conservation.

00:01:13:21 – 00:01:43:19
Claudia
Katie was recognized as one of Forbes 30 under 30 Entrepreneurs and Energy, and is a recipient of the prestigious Cartier Women’s Award for North America. We are talking actually whilst she’s in the middle of a major pivot, Katie is shifting her companies to a new business model. She’s transitioning away from conventional employer employee relationships to explore new ways of collaboration based on trust and individual empowerment.

00:01:43:21 – 00:02:26:16
Claudia
I find this truly fascinating the guts and the freedom, but also the plain human urge of a multiple entrepreneur to manifest the importance of balancing business outcomes with healthy internal dynamics and personal growth. Katie’s turning point is so refreshing because yes, the status quo can always be challenged if it is done in a truly thoughtful, considerate and authentic way.

00:02:26:18 – 00:02:56:03
Claudia
So welcome. Katie Anderson in Dallas, Texas. Katie is in the morning. I’m in the late afternoon here in Berlin and the first time we met was in September during Unga in New York City at the, Cartier Redbox Me event. And I was so intrigued about your comment. So I thought, oh, this woman sounds so interesting. And then I found out about all these amazing things you do, which of course we will talk about later more.

00:02:56:05 – 00:03:04:10
Claudia
So before we start, I want to ask you a few questions. What is your current state of mind?

00:03:04:12 – 00:03:19:11
Katie
Current state of mind. Open. Interested? Curious? Yeah, that feels about right. That feels like my open state of mind. I mean, my current state of mind.

00:03:19:13 – 00:03:24:17
Claudia
Nice. How would you describe your idea of perfect happiness?

00:03:24:19 – 00:04:20:05
Katie
My idea of perfect happiness is, to me, the idea of perfect happiness presents this idea that there’s a arrival process. Maybe what I would say is that I feel what’s actually achievable versus is a consistent state, is the pursuit of. So am I able to create happiness in my pursuing of perfect happiness? And I think that could garner a more successful achievement opportunity than identifying this state of being and then trying to ultimately live, live it versus, I mean, I guess we could say that the pursuit is also a state of being, but to me, it’s about organizing myself to relate with life in such a way that my relating creates happiness regardless of the

00:04:20:05 – 00:04:22:01
Katie
outcome of my life.

00:04:22:03 – 00:04:28:03
Claudia
Wonderful, lovely. Which living person do you most admire?

00:04:28:05 – 00:04:59:17
Katie
Living person? Oh, man. Most admire this shifts. Who? Who comes to mind when you ask me that? So is Alanis Morissette. I just think that she’s normal amidst and a very abnormal life. I also feel like she writes not because she thinks to write and instead writes because it’s just what happens. There’s this willingness to be visible amidst her own lack of control.

00:04:59:17 – 00:05:02:20
Katie
And I find a lot of bravery and beauty in that.

00:05:02:22 – 00:05:06:05
Claudia
Wonderful. Yes. I have to listen to her again.

00:05:06:07 – 00:05:09:05
Katie
She’s from back in the 90s. 2000?

00:05:09:11 – 00:05:19:17
Claudia
Yes. Yes, exactly. But, Yeah. No, I have to listen to her again. I also had this phase where I was just going for Amy Winehouse again. Like up.

00:05:19:17 – 00:05:20:10
Katie
And down.

00:05:20:10 – 00:05:25:18
Claudia
Up and down. I was just like, I suddenly had this, like, it needs to be. Amy 24 seven.

00:05:25:20 – 00:05:48:00
Katie
Isn’t that interesting how we have phases, we just have phases and we’re drawn to it. And I can do songs on repeat, and there would just be blips of moments of sort of pops of, yes, that, you know, I needed to hear that line or I needed to that word or, or even hearing the same word or the line that I’ve heard a thousand times because of where I am in my life, I hear it differently and in a way that I need to.

00:05:48:02 – 00:05:51:10
Claudia
Yeah. Yeah. Music is such a companion right.

00:05:51:12 – 00:06:21:01
Katie
Yeah. Oh yes. Well I mean the beauty about music is that especially if you remove the words is I almost feel like music has this ability to move us amidst our lack of control. So here I am again talking about a lack of control. And I feel like music has that power. So regardless if you want it to, it’s going to move you have you regardless whether you like it, hate it, etc. it’s just a mover.

00:06:21:03 – 00:07:00:21
Claudia
So I told you in my podcast, I’m talking to women about a pivotal moment and a turning point in their life, and I’m really speaking to women from all over the world. Texas, for example. And I’m so excited for you to be here because when we had a conversation on on that evening in New York back in September, I thought it was so fascinating how you talked about, you know, on the one hand, you know, you’re an entrepreneur and you have a company and you have employees and clients and so on and so forth, but you somehow are luckily able to find time to explore a completely different parts of the world.

00:07:00:21 – 00:07:29:04
Claudia
I guess parts of yourself and travel and experiment and be pretty. How can I say gutsy and wild? But you said that for you, a pivotal moment was that when you were in college and the for the first time, you really came across this word entrepreneur, and that kind of got you going into thinking how liberating this might be to go down that path.

00:07:29:06 – 00:07:35:14
Claudia
So, of course, I’m curious to know, you know, did this work out the way you envisioned?

00:07:35:16 – 00:08:05:06
Katie
Yeah, it’s a great, great topic. I, I grew up in a town of 165 people. I mean, my surroundings were 1500 acres of woods, and we were decently free to wander around in there. The beauty of that kind of surrounding was that I didn’t realize until my later life, reflecting back at my childhood that the gift in that kind of upbringing was this unbridled creativity.

00:08:05:08 – 00:08:29:18
Katie
I mean, truly, the nature was just there. And whoever I was and whatever I was going to be, nature just greeted that. And then that was that was my day. Every day. Since then, I’ve, I feel like I’ve lived a life where I’ve tried on a lot of what society says is successful. So, you know, go to college.

00:08:29:18 – 00:08:50:16
Katie
Okay, great. Okay. What’s this college thing? Let me go to college. And from there, you know, be a doctor or a lawyer. Okay, great. I really entertained the the doctor piece of it. And so I think why that particular moment became a big shift for me was I had never heard the word entrepreneur before, that that word had never even crossed into my either’s.

00:08:50:18 – 00:09:12:16
Katie
And what’s interesting about it is I know that the word has its specific definition. And what I really took away from reading about an entrepreneur was not necessarily entrepreneur, and more. What you’re telling me that I can just create a life, you can just create a life. I don’t have to. It doesn’t have to look a specific way.

00:09:12:16 – 00:09:35:19
Katie
Because up until this point, I was thinking, okay, here’s a doctor, here’s a lawyer, here’s I mean you. Now that I know what I know, I could even put entrepreneur in this arena. So this is what an entrepreneur is. This is what it looks like. This is their pathway. This is how their life looks. Now. At the time I, I took entrepreneur because it felt most free.

00:09:35:21 – 00:10:04:16
Katie
And I would say that my most recent realizing is that it comes with its own shackles. And so what I realized for me is that any, any sort of defined role comes with shackles and if I am in pursuit of a defined role, then ultimately I’m going to sign myself up for that. And so I did embark on this entrepreneur world.

00:10:04:16 – 00:10:27:03
Katie
I started companies, I started my first company roughly ten, 11 years ago. That was actually the award I received by Car-T. I have employed upwards of 52 people. I have I mean, I’ve really done it and I didn’t realize it. So I also started out as an employee. So I got to ride that pathway for a little bit.

00:10:27:05 – 00:10:48:03
Katie
And, you know, there are many things that were actually pretty enjoyable about being an employee. And goodness, there are many things that were just completely unenjoyable, that being an employee, and, and being an employee, your looked like the remedy. So if I, if I’m an employee in my situation, well, the other side of this is to become an employer.

00:10:48:06 – 00:10:59:18
Katie
And so I had that ground running about 11 years ago. And I have been an employer up until about a week ago. It’s when you say which which maybe doesn’t.

00:10:59:18 – 00:11:00:23
Claudia
Talk about another shift.

00:11:01:04 – 00:11:23:07
Katie
Well, that maybe that’s actually what this, you know, we set this call up a quite a bit of going this hadn’t happened yet. This but the moment I’m talking about. So when you ask about the pivotal shift in your life, I almost feel like I’m in one, like I’m in one more or less so than ones that have happened in my past that I can talk about thoroughly through, and I can talk about the ripple afterwards.

00:11:23:07 – 00:11:45:07
Katie
It’s realizing that I’ve actually just now embarked on a pivotal shift in my life, and I have thoughts and feelings about maybe what’s on the other side of this, but I’m not quite sure. And, you know, I was also thinking about this right before our call, which is how often do we we build up to these pivotal moments, and then we finally get the courage to to make them.

00:11:45:09 – 00:12:09:04
Katie
And then we’re in it, we’re in the pivot. And then then there’s the after that pivot. And often conversations like this happen after a pivot. So I’m able to sit here and communicate with you, the lead up, the pivot itself and how it and the outcome. But I feel like if, if there’s encouragement to be had it being willing to discuss how it is within a pivot.

00:12:09:06 – 00:12:21:22
Katie
And if somebody is even thinking about making a pivot, it’s to share and be visible amidst actual the inside of a pivot. When we don’t really know the outcome, we have thoughts and feelings about the outcome, but we don’t really know the outcome.

00:12:21:23 – 00:12:25:08
Claudia
No, definitely. I mean, let’s get to that. Just that what.

00:12:25:09 – 00:12:26:08
Katie
Is what is that guy?

00:12:26:10 – 00:13:08:10
Claudia
I just want to back up. So you read the, you know, entrepreneur, you decided, you know, you were an employee, you decided to become the employee for the entrepreneur to go for it. And what you chose, the area you chose was water. And with save water Co, you created, company and a concept to teach. Correct me if I’m wrong to teach, you know, people in private homes, but also primarily, bigger real estate developers about how to properly install the water drains and the toilets and how much water can be saved through this.

00:13:08:10 – 00:13:14:03
Claudia
I mean, that was mind boggling. It was like there was a number that’s like 60%.

00:13:14:04 – 00:13:36:19
Katie
Yeah. It’s my average if I touch, so my main focus, my goal was always in question. How can I create the most amount of impact in the shortest period of time? And so with that thought, the target market became apartments, multifamily. If you think about it, you can go into an apartment property. You might have 200 families living in one driveway.

00:13:36:21 – 00:14:04:19
Katie
So if if I’m going to save the most amount of water possible, approaching a market like that makes a lot of sense because I just need one. Yes. And I can enter into one driveway and I can impact 200 families and our average savings right now if I touch a property is roughly 55%, which means that I can actually cut the consumption of this 200 family complex by 50% and not impede, livable experience.

00:14:04:21 – 00:14:37:19
Katie
So the idea here is, how can I cut consumption in pants? Living experience without changing behavior? We can do that successfully at 55%. So we’ve probably impacted over 100 110,000 apartment units across the United States in the last 11 years with billions and billions of gallons of water. It’s it’s been a super amazing 11 years filled with success, also filled with many white flags, you know, fries, celebrations, the whole entire thing.

00:14:37:19 – 00:14:47:14
Katie
Ultimately, though, realizing that from an idea, a lot of hard work that, you know, it’s possible. Unbelievable.

00:14:47:16 – 00:15:03:13
Claudia
Wow I mean that’s an amazing business. So you have you always on the side also have you been involved with like environmental organizations and have you been active in this whole realm through your whole entrepreneurial career.

00:15:03:15 – 00:15:38:08
Katie
So yes and no. I have you know, earlier this year I was in Chicago for the Water Efficiency Alliance organization. And, I’ve worked with municipalities, I’ve had conversations. I’ve, you know, even locally with the Texas Water Development Board, sharing our results, sharing what’s possible. I’ve, I’ve read conservation plans and realized that they’re highly underestimating the possibility with water and essentially going to the table and saying, hey, for a fraction of the cost, I can achieve your 2060 goal within about 5 to 10 years.

00:15:38:10 – 00:16:03:21
Katie
And so they’re my interactions in that regard have been in that arena sharing. I find, though, that the slowness of that particular process for me, who I, I do enjoy speed. And again, I have this goal of the most amount of impact in the shortest period of time. I find it most useful to at the same time, go with the private sector and actually generate results.

00:16:03:22 – 00:16:24:04
Katie
So that was kind of my thought was I can share what’s happening while also at the same time doing what it is that I know is completely possible. And so I thought mostly our focus has been with the private sector. I also go to them and I say, you know, I used to be a financial advisor, so I’ll go to these ownership groups who have these portfolios.

00:16:24:04 – 00:16:52:05
Katie
And essentially what I let them know is, hey, for $500,000, I can make you 5 million. And they oftentimes say yes to that. Now, I know the byproduct of me doing that is all of this good, good. So water getting saved, etc.. And I would say that that’s probably been my M.O. with my particular business sets and my mindsets, is I, I really enjoy finding something I feel passionate about building a business around it, and then allowing for people to pretty much stay who they are.

00:16:52:05 – 00:17:08:10
Katie
So these financial groups love money. Great. Stay who you are, residents. You love your water intake. Fine. Keep your behavior. And then with all of that still staying the same, what becomes possible. And that’s really what flourished our particular model.

00:17:08:12 – 00:17:22:15
Claudia
So cool. But you just said that you’ve been an entrepreneur for 11 years and know that you are now in the pivot on. Of course I’m curious what’s out. Whatever you can share. Share.

00:17:22:17 – 00:17:50:17
Katie
Yeah. You know I, I it’s fascinating because you know, at one point in my life I even wondered if I had what it took to be successful as an entrepreneur. And to now realize that I’ve I’m laying down a version of that. So the answer yes, I, I do have what it takes to build a business from scratch, grow it, grow it successfully again, upwards of 52 employees.

00:17:50:19 – 00:18:09:15
Katie
So I’ve yes, I have what it takes and have success. And the beauty is that water is not going anywhere. It’s still in need. It’s still a passion. So it’s not like this business is going to go out of business anytime soon. I mean, for the rest of my life, as long as humans still require water, this business model is successful.

00:18:09:17 – 00:18:39:10
Katie
I think for me personally, what I feel slightly different in my outlook with my businesses is that they they’re not necessarily separate from me. So for me, business isn’t simply a means of making money, though that is a part of it. It’s a means of creativity. It’s a means of storytelling. It’s a means of relationship. So, you know, the world does a great job of telling us who we are.

00:18:39:10 – 00:18:55:05
Katie
You’re an employee or an employer and then also the world does a great job of saying and also this is what that means. So you need to act this way and you need to act this way. And this is your right and this is your right, and this is what you can and cannot do, and this is what you can or can’t do.

00:18:55:07 – 00:19:34:09
Katie
And for me, the limitations I have found within that particular dynamic, I have felt to be decently unsatisfying. So if I’m not a person who’s geared toward power and control, then how do I be with a dynamic that has operated in that manner since the beginning of its time? Meaning no matter how much I wanted to be seen simply as me, as an individual, having the hat of boss and owner and founder were stronger than any of that.

00:19:34:11 – 00:19:58:01
Katie
And so it’s not that I’m and tie these particular notions, it’s that there was nothing else that could be other than them. That was no matter what. I was always the boss, always the boss. And I found it pretty limiting with me and whoever, whomever it was that I was working with. And I’ll give you an easy example.

00:19:58:03 – 00:20:19:15
Katie
Let’s talk about hey, so it’s like as an employee, one of my problems was that somebody else controlling my pay. Well, fine, I’ll solve that. I’ll become the employer. And so therefore I’ll have control of my pay. Well that’s fantastic. Sure did. I became an employer, and then all of a sudden, however much I want to write myself as a check is how much I want to write myself.

00:20:19:15 – 00:20:37:02
Katie
This check. What? I didn’t expect that, but it’s very natural, is all of a sudden, when I started bringing more team members, they were waiting for me to tell them how much they were going to get paid. It’s like, of course, because that’s the dynamic that as an employee, I wait for somebody, but I also wait for somebody to accept me.

00:20:37:03 – 00:21:00:21
Katie
See me, approve of me. It’s just the dynamic. And so where I was able to gain all of these things for myself that I couldn’t get as an employee, meaning, self approval, self-acceptance, however much I want to get paid. I then found myself to be in a speed of having to do that for someone else. And I had a real problem with that.

00:21:00:23 – 00:21:17:18
Katie
How am I supposed to know what you are supposed to be paid? I’m over here trying to take care of myself as far as acceptance and I’m telling myself I’m good enough, and and you’re wanting me to do that for you and not just one of you. Like, 50 of you are wanting me to do this for you.

00:21:17:20 – 00:21:42:11
Katie
And so what I found was I got consumed. It was consuming the role as consuming. And I remember talking to to two folks that have been with you for since the beginning, and I was saying, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this dynamic. And they said, well, do you want one of us to do it? Meaning do you want us to take over, you know, pay raises and and I said, I don’t think you’re hearing me.

00:21:42:16 – 00:22:07:02
Katie
I have a problem with the dynamic. So I’m if I’m not okay with it, I’m not okay with just paying somebody else to do it. That means I am distracting. It’s still lids. The problem still lids. And so as a way to to start sort of radically approaching this problem, I said one, no, I’m not paying and it’s not going anywhere else.

00:22:07:04 – 00:22:26:21
Katie
To I’m going to flip the script. And so what I did is I called every single one of my employees, and I annihilated the idea that any boss or manager would have control over their income. And I just flat out asked them, hey, how much money do you think you should be making? And then the other part of this was, and at some point you feel like you get a raise, will you call me?

00:22:26:23 – 00:22:43:23
Katie
And if I don’t hear from you, then I’m going to just assume that you’re good, because what that does is it frees me up to be more of me and be able to focus in my world versus worrying about all of this. So to me, that’s just one example that, yes, there were a lot of beautiful things that came with becoming an entrepreneur.

00:22:43:23 – 00:22:57:16
Katie
But then there were all the other pieces, like the same problems that I created as being an employee still exist. They still exist. I’m just on the other side of the coin with the problem. It was fascinating. I didn’t it took me a long time to realize that.

00:22:57:18 – 00:23:22:09
Claudia
Yeah. No, it’s very fascinating. And and the employees, it’s a special form of trust. Right. And it’s not something that we are in general used to in a company. Of course not in a large company, but even there. And were they were they open to it. And was it like a transparent good situation for everyone? I mean, did they see the opportunity in it?

00:23:22:11 – 00:23:43:03
Katie
What’s happening? I’ve, I’ve shared this story a few times. And the questions that roll in our it’s a fascinating experiment. I mean, what actually would happen. And then a person gets to ask them, what would I do in my situation, what I, what I name, a higher price, what I am, etc.. And you know, how this moment even happened for me was I was talking to an employee at the time.

00:23:43:03 – 00:24:03:09
Katie
His name was Hyun Woo. He was our in our technology world. And I was actually calling to give him a raise. And on that call, when I give him the raise, he said no. And it blew. It blew my context. It blew my team contacts and I and I was thinking, wait, what? Like who says no to a raise?

00:24:03:14 – 00:24:24:05
Katie
Who says no to raise? And and I said, wait, I don’t understand. And he said, well, I have goals, I have my own goals. And if you give me a raise before I’ve met my own goals, then I feel like, well, then what’s the point of achieving the goals? And I said, well, wait, you haven’t even shared that you have these goals.

00:24:24:05 – 00:24:44:12
Katie
And he said, I know because they’re my own goals. And it was just in this moment as an interaction that I was thinking this happening here. I said, so wait, let me just make sure I understand you’ve set your own goals. You have not shared them with anyone. They were set by you. You don’t have a manager who’s saying, hey, hey, hey, we we need to set you some goals.

00:24:44:14 – 00:25:16:10
Katie
You have some money that you associated to achieving those goals. And what you’re sharing is that you’re uninterested in any kind of money until you’ve achieved your own, your own set of goals. Yes. And it was just this realizing that what absolutely lives in us, because I just witnessed it, is a line of integrity that is intrinsic as nothing to his his goal setting, his value, his none of that had anything to do with anyone else.

00:25:16:10 – 00:25:26:04
Katie
It was fully created from within this person. He wasn’t looking at what so-and-so was making or this person was what the market was doing. It was just him.

00:25:26:06 – 00:25:37:22
Claudia
But then I assume he must have also felt safe in his surrounding. In your company. And since you are the founder, you must have instilled right some of this. So I mean, yeah, connected.

00:25:38:03 – 00:26:06:04
Katie
Sure, sure. I, I can imagine that there would have to be a safe environment for that style of interaction to go on. What I know is that I, in that moment, trusted him beyond I mean, I said, here’s the deal. You obviously are operating from something beyond us, and I, I just want you to just let me know because you’re clearly listening, looking, paying attention to something that is beyond us.

00:26:06:06 – 00:26:23:02
Katie
I said, so here’s the deal. When you’re ready for raise, you just call and let me know. And my only job is to just go make it happen. That’s my only job. And he said, okay. And I said, great, thanks. I got off the phone with him. I made a phone call to everyone else, and at the exact same thing, I said, here’s the deal.

00:26:23:02 – 00:26:51:13
Katie
You’re fired. I’m fired. We are fired from this kind of relationship with one another. From this point forward, you are now in control of this particular piece of your life. So you’re going to tell me how much you take and when you should get raises. What you’re working on in my only job is to make it happen when the phone call comes in, or if you need something specific to help yourself achieve those goals, whether it’s a class, whether it’s a piece of equipment, etc., that that becomes my role in this particular organization.

00:26:51:15 – 00:27:10:00
Katie
And then one of the most common questions I get after this is did anybody give themself a raise? Like did did somebody say something? And, you know, not a single phone call came, not a single one asking for a raise. Yeah, I’m not saying that’s good bad right or wrong. Just interesting.

00:27:10:02 – 00:27:32:03
Claudia
No, it’s interesting, but I also believe that. Yeah, because I think there’s no need for action because one feels safe. And also maybe, maybe one needs a moment to grapple with it and think, think about it for oneself. But but honestly, I feel it’s this trust part. And the safety part. And we are usually not confronted with such a good thing.

00:27:32:03 – 00:27:35:11
Claudia
Right. And usual operations and companies.

00:27:35:13 – 00:28:00:03
Katie
Well, I get applauded for the environmental work that I’ve done in safe Water Co, and what I am unable to sort of separate is the holistic piece of what is going on inside of a company. So yes, we have this mission and we’re going to this mission. And also the what’s happening here is a group of individuals are coming together to produce the outcome.

00:28:00:05 – 00:28:33:08
Katie
And so if that outcome is positive, is the whole organization healthy. So we great. We have achieved a a business construct where the outcome is healthy. What about our inner workings. It wasn’t good enough. Truthfully just only having a positive healthy outcome wasn’t good enough. I could not help and turn my head at the inner workings of us, human to human.

00:28:33:09 – 00:29:00:08
Katie
That relationship and to me that that also needs equal attention, equal support and equal healing, as we would maybe even to define missions and values of companies goals. So to me it’s like great check mission values, goals of the organization. Check. I mean, some are still trying to even achieve that, that okay. And so now let’s look at this internal piece because to me it was also fascinating.

00:29:00:12 – 00:29:34:14
Katie
I was surrounded with a group. We all loved each other. I very close, very trusting, even as the conversation or the piece of this conversation I just shared. And what we were dealing with was kind of genuine emergent chaos, like maybe the best way I can describe it. Companies are operating in an emergent state. So essentially one problem we have is that we are walking around anxious all the time just in regards to pretty much everything with each other, with the world, with clients, customers, vendors.

00:29:34:16 – 00:29:52:01
Katie
And so a part of this was okay. We again, we’ve got our goal, we’ve got our outcome that’s healthy. Now can we create the getting to that outcome goal to be also healthy? What does that look like? How does our interactions with each other look like? What does that coming together look like.

00:29:52:03 – 00:29:54:11
Claudia
And that is the pivot you’re in.

00:29:54:13 – 00:30:23:17
Katie
That’s the pivot I’m in. That’s it. Yeah. So I started my business 11 years ago and entered into this world of I employee employer. Now I have done everything I can to create as best an environment in that particular dynamic as possible. Again, example I just gave is you know, how can I really bring a state of equality, a state of justice, a state of usefulness to the employer employee dynamic?

00:30:23:19 – 00:30:50:05
Katie
And about five years ago, I started dreaming up another way of doing this. Meaning surely there is another way that we can ultimately come together and achieve this same goal. And it’s been five years in the making, and a couple of weeks ago, I just ultimately said, it’s time. It’s time to make this shift. And it is. We have to exit the employer employee relationship.

00:30:50:07 – 00:31:12:07
Katie
So for me and you to know what else is possible, we have to get out of this relationship. This is not going to support us. And I made the final decision a few weeks ago, which ultimately means I have released every W-2 employee from my field, and I am now in the middle of what’s next. What does this look like?

00:31:12:09 – 00:31:13:05
Claudia

00:31:13:07 – 00:31:40:00
Katie
Ultimately, what I’m gaming for is, is freedom, flexibility, an individual to really showcase their uniqueness. And ultimately, at the basis of all of it, it’s going to be trust. It’s just trust. I feel like that’s the piece that’s going to that’s necessary to heal. The relationship between human to human is trust. So then how do we begin to foster an environment where that’s even possible?

00:31:40:00 – 00:32:15:07
Katie
What what are the pieces necessary to be in place for us to be able to trust each other again? What does that look like? What does that look like? And again, the businesses are here. I have no desire to close the businesses. I love the I love the goal of the businesses. I love the the missions and what I what I repeat though, is that there’s no goal or a mission that’s good enough to also continue the unhealthy ness of the coming together of us is really what I think I landed in.

00:32:15:09 – 00:32:43:03
Claudia
It’s fascinating, really, to hear this because yes, why not? Why not recreate a different structure or a different way of how people are coming together to fulfill a mission? I mean, it’s very that’s very loosely, but why not? Yeah. It can be so beneficial. And looking, you know, often at the structure now and how much I don’t know and satisfaction, you know, a big topic is loneliness at work.

00:32:43:03 – 00:33:00:00
Claudia
You know like all these things have developed through common old structures. Not all of them bad, of course. Yeah, but why not? If you have the possibility, rethink and pull through with it. I find that’s a really, inspiring. Thank you.

00:33:00:01 – 00:33:26:22
Katie
Well, it’s interesting because we as a society, you know, we’re trying to innovate the the content and we are we’re I mean, you know, AI is a great example. I just came into the market. It’s, you know, that’s an example of, inventing something, inventing new content. Like we’ve got Elon Musk launching rockets, you know, there’s advances in content, and yet there hasn’t been any advance in the construct of which the content moves.

00:33:27:00 – 00:33:50:10
Katie
We’re still being with each other the exact same way that we always have. And and again, I, I can speak for myself to me when the beginning when you asked about happiness, as the older I get, the more experience I have. I think happiness has less to do with the content of my life. I’m beginning to believe it has actually more to do with the the construct of my life, how I’m choosing to be live.

00:33:50:11 – 00:34:15:16
Katie
And I feel like that’s the unhappiness that we are experiencing as a society within our work lives, I feel, has absolutely nothing to do with the content that we’re working on. And it’s more of our organized construct that we’re in with each other, that that’s the actual unsatisfying piece. And I know this because if you if you create a wonderful environment, I don’t know that I actually care what I’m working on.

00:34:15:16 – 00:34:33:16
Katie
If if I’m surrounded with people that I really have fun with, that I’m enjoying, if I’m if I’m also in a state of I’m learning something like I’m putting my hands to it, I feel like I’m actually a part of the the value I of equal value to the other pieces that are here trying to make or build this thing.

00:34:33:18 – 00:34:47:09
Katie
You know, it’s who am I amidst this construct that I think makes, that creates opportunity for me to feel fulfilled as a person amidst this team. And it ultimately doesn’t matter what we’re doing, doesn’t matter what we’re building.

00:34:47:11 – 00:35:16:02
Claudia
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Interesting. I just want to quickly towards the end, also point out what I read about you and what you also had shared in our, conversation that you also had the liberty of taking yourself out of the every day and be experimental with like wild explorations, swimming with whales and, racing horses across deserts.

00:35:16:02 – 00:35:29:04
Claudia
And what else happened? And, these activities you said earlier, you like speed. Are these experiences also important to kind of balance you or to see you know, what’s beyond?

00:35:29:06 – 00:36:00:07
Katie
Great question. When I think about each of these moments, for me, a part of what creates healthiness with life is, for lack of better word, balance of what I would call normalcy and add normalcy. You know, it’s not every day that you swim in the wild in the ocean with a whale. And so to have that experience naturally is going to move me beyond my what I know to be real.

00:36:00:09 – 00:36:30:16
Katie
And those are all pivotal moments, those those moments racing horses in Egypt swimming with wells in Tonga. I lived in a van and traveled all around the country. And for me, I think what I’m doing is I’m I’m invoking myself. And that’s so that life continues to be interesting. So when you ask about being happy, for me, interest in life for me is an important piece.

00:36:30:17 – 00:36:53:17
Katie
What I recognize, though, is that I can’t have a life of swimming in whale in water with wells, that I still do laundry and, you know, cook myself food, etc. and what I’ve noticed is that I’ll go on these adventures and then I’ll want to be home where there’s just a level of consistency. I make the same coffee every morning.

00:36:53:19 – 00:37:20:05
Katie
I have a slower routine. I’ll go to the local coffee shop and then I can just feel it. It’s like my system gets. I don’t know if restless is the right word, but I just pick something that’s going to get me outside of that normalcy. And so that’s that’s really what my play has been, is just choosing things that get me outside of my comfort zone that I can’t recollect because I’ve not quite done it.

00:37:20:06 – 00:37:45:22
Katie
And a part of that adventure is getting to experience a part of me that hasn’t been able to be experienced yet. And I don’t swim with whales in the water all the time. The moment that that happens, I’m getting to feel myself in a way that I’ve just never felt before. And that. That’s intriguing. That’s interesting. That makes life more livable and in my opinion.

00:37:46:00 – 00:37:59:22
Claudia
Beautiful. Last question. Our last two questions. What do you do to calm yourself down. And what do you do to energize yourself. Well maybe swimming with the whales.

00:38:00:00 – 00:38:25:17
Katie
That’s fun. Calming myself down. I have a little mini doc in my life and she is just little Earth incarnate, so, wouldn’t be, unlikely for me to just go pick her up and play with her for a little bit. So she’s calming. But I also have this heated body that gets crystals and I will turn that on, and I get a weighted blanket and that I can lay on that thing for hours.

00:38:25:17 – 00:38:47:19
Katie
So that’s that’s also another thing I do to calm myself down is I had a crystal mat with with a weighted blanket. And then the, the third thing I do is that I turn off my sensory. So cover my eyes, I’ll cover my ears. And what I really find is that to calm myself down is to close off input.

00:38:47:21 – 00:39:18:06
Katie
So any particular way that I can close off the input is a way to calm myself down to get myself going is, for me, all about shifting context. So, being spontaneous if I invite spontaneity into my life, there’s an immediate rush of energy. Whether that be. And I’ve done this, I just go to the airport, I went to the departures, and I just looked at the departures, and there was a guy standing there and I said, excuse me, if you were to go anywhere on this board right now, where would you fly?

00:39:18:10 – 00:39:33:08
Katie
And he looked at me and he goes, wait, you don’t have a ticket? And I said, I don’t, I just want to take some flight that’s leaving here in the next hour. And he said, oh, well, I mean, you could do that or that place is great and that place is great. And I said, great, thanks. I think I’ll choose there.

00:39:33:08 – 00:39:49:02
Katie
Where do I get a ticket? He said, right over there. I walked over there, bought a ticket, walked to the thing, got on an airplane. I had no idea. I had never been there. I didn’t know I didn’t have a car when I was arriving. I didn’t know where I was going to stay. And so that to me is a rush of energy.

00:39:49:02 – 00:40:09:12
Katie
It’s getting myself into a place of the unknown within myself to to experience how am I going to be right? That’s right. So I think the two is like something that’s very predictable, which could be silence closing my eyes. So it’s highly unpredictable and my energy’s probably going to flow in either direction that way.

00:40:09:14 – 00:40:20:04
Claudia
Well, fantastic. Fascinating topic today. I really loved it. I thought it was so inspirational. Thanks so much for listening. I’ll be listening to it again.

00:40:20:06 – 00:40:20:17
Katie
It’s great.

00:40:20:17 – 00:40:25:19
Claudia
It was so nice to see you again. So yeah, I guess have a wonderful rest of the day.

00:40:25:21 – 00:40:27:01
Katie
Thank you. Claudia.

00:40:27:03 – 00:40:29:00
Claudia
Yeah, we’ll be in touch. Thank you.

00:40:29:04 – 00:40:44:06
Katie
That’s great. Thank you.

00:40:44:08 – 00:41:13:08
Claudia
I learned a lot in this conversation. Not only that, already 55% of water savings can be achieved without residents changing their behavior only by buildings implementing water conservation tools. But also just the main fact that Katie has been thinking about the relationship of an employer and an employee, and what the dynamics are, and how we can break and redefine this relationship in a new way.

00:41:13:08 – 00:41:32:14
Claudia
I don’t know, I find it so, so inspiring and even though that is not my professional field, but you know, you can transfer what we’ve heard to anything. So I was very touched by this conversation.

00:41:32:16 – 00:41:58:05
Claudia
Thank you for listening to Shift Happens. Please follow and subscribe to this podcast. It’s an easy hit for you with a huge impact for me. It helps me grow even further and bring you more conversations with women from around the globe. I am so happy to announce that the iconic Danish shirt brand Brett Soucek supports season four of Shift Happens.

00:41:58:07 – 00:42:36:04
Claudia
I love these shirts crafted in Europe, dedicated to the luxury of dressing with ease and delivering exceptional quality and enduring styles. Use code shift happens at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. Valid on full price items only. Shift happens has been created and is hosted by me. Claudia Mahler editing Andy Boroson, social media Magdalena Reckendrees. I hope you felt connected and heard by listening to Shift happens.