Edwina Dunn: How to understand what women want

00:00:02:10 – 00:00:26:02
Claudia
You know, I would be the only woman in the room. Did it feel strange? Yes. What I found I was lucky with is that I was the only one doing what I was doing. So actually, they stopped seeing a woman, and they started seeing someone who knew how to do what they wanted.

00:00:26:03 – 00:00:30:00
Claudia
To.

00:00:30:02 – 00:01:03:22
Edwina
Hello. Welcome back to Shift Happiness. This is season three. Tune in every second Wednesday. Wherever you get your podcasts. And meet my wonderful guests. Listen to their intriguing insights and unique ways of maneuvering life. My name is Claudia mahler. I am your host. With shift happens, I am creating space and time for women to share their stories. So that we all connect and feel heard.

00:01:04:00 – 00:01:34:04
Edwina
In episode 17, I’m in conversation with Edwina Dunn. I got to know Edwina at my kitchen table as I cooked us a simple dinner to have a break from the weather marathon in Davos last January. Edwina is a world renowned pioneer and leader in the data industry. She is the visionary behind global customer loyalty programs and revolutionized the world of retail and consumer goods.

00:01:34:06 – 00:02:04:09
Edwina
Edwina is the founder and chair of The Female Lead, an educational foundation she started in 2015. Using data to understand the challenges women face in the workplace. All over the world, she and her team work with businesses and governments to help create policies and new models for the workplace, all driven by social media platforms. With over 8 million followers.

00:02:04:11 – 00:02:33:13
Edwina
Edwina is the author of several books. Her latest, When She’s in the room, was published in February of 2024. Edwina is a woman of great wisdom and modesty, and I am so very honored to speak to her.

00:02:33:15 – 00:02:35:07
Edwina
Good to see you, Edwina.

00:02:35:09 – 00:02:38:00
Claudia
It’s wonderful to see you, Claudia.

00:02:38:02 – 00:02:55:01
Edwina
This time we are not bundled up with, like, warm hats and thick coats and scarves, because the last time we saw each other and we met actually was in the winter in Davos. And then one evening, the whole frenzy became a bit too much for us.

00:02:55:03 – 00:03:04:20
Claudia
Oh, it was wonderful. And you, you prepared a beautiful meal in your lovely home and I felt so welcome. It was gorgeous. Yeah.

00:03:04:20 – 00:03:17:00
Edwina
No, it was a really such an unplanned opportunity to have time to speak to each other and just step out of this, to then recharge and go back into everything the next day.

00:03:17:01 – 00:03:29:11
Claudia
Yeah, it’s pretty frantic. There isn’t a lot of walking and a lot of taking boots off and coats off and then back on again and rushing to the next venue. It’s quite a marathon.

00:03:29:13 – 00:03:52:04
Edwina
It’s quite a marathon in that sense. But also I find for the mind, I mean, it’s so stimulating. One meets so many people. There are so many great ideas one wants to reach, change the world right there and then it’s like, it’s a lot. So, yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time to being on my podcast.

00:03:52:04 – 00:04:22:12
Edwina
Shift happens. And as you know, I speak to women from all walks of life and trying to be as diverse and international and global as possible. So the female lead, which you started as an educational charity first and foremost, I think in 2015, is really, if I’m correct, one of the first major platforms I started to follow and I thought, wow, this is amazing.

00:04:22:12 – 00:04:34:11
Edwina
This is exactly what everybody’s kind of yearning for. But to have, like strengthening and that the togetherness is important. And, you know, where can we find female role models? Yeah.

00:04:34:13 – 00:04:34:21
Claudia
Yeah.

00:04:35:02 – 00:04:51:16
Edwina
So anyway, that’s just that. So you are like a role model to me and have always been. And then I met you there and it was just amazing. Before we get started, I wanted to ask you a few questions. What is your current state of mind?

00:04:51:18 – 00:05:28:07
Claudia
Oh, gosh. No one ever asked me that question. That’s so original. My current state of mind is, if I’m really honest, Claudia, it’s a bit frustrated. I feel as if, I’ve spent a few years collecting all the data and all the facts, and I feel my work is logical and powerful, and yet I’m not sure I’m getting the cut through that I believe logic would suggest.

00:05:28:09 – 00:06:01:02
Claudia
And I’m asking myself why. And of course I’m not used to something not being logical because that’s my background and that’s the way I’ve always worked. So I keep asking myself what am I missing? What have I done? Why is it not enough to have 8.6 million women all giving their opinion and us being pretty unified in what’s going wrong?

00:06:01:04 – 00:06:25:09
Claudia
And yet we’re not changing anything. So yeah, I’m frustrated, Claudia, I really am. And I don’t like that feeling. And I’m really trying to turn that into a positive drive for more energy and use thinking. But that’s how I’m feeling at the moment. Frustrated.

00:06:25:11 – 00:06:44:19
Edwina
Well, that’s not good. So what would be the like your ideal outcome? Like 1 or 2 things that you actually had hoped for or, you know, that was like a motivator to bring all these 8.6 million together over the past ten years. So, yeah.

00:06:44:21 – 00:07:18:21
Claudia
What would it look like? Yeah, very simple. Very, very simple. You know, you can talk to any man and he will say something nice about a woman or women. But what we’re asking for is not about niceties. It’s not about being polite. It’s not about being kind. It’s about recognizing that women are living longer. They have different phases in their life.

00:07:18:21 – 00:07:47:13
Claudia
They are single for quite a long time. They may choose to get into some form of partnership. They may choose to have children, and then they’re alone again because their children leave home. And I think women are now looking for how to find meaning and purpose in their lives. And to do that, they’re searching for something that makes them feel fulfilled.

00:07:47:15 – 00:08:31:21
Claudia
And a lot of women consider that, something to do with work. And so the impact I’m looking for is men recognizing that something significant has changed and that women want meaning, purpose and some element of work in their life. And that to do that, it’s not about men being polite. It’s about recognizing we are 51% of the population, and governments and businesses and leaders surely have a responsibility in satisfying all of their customers.

00:08:31:23 – 00:08:59:03
Claudia
All of the conveners or all of the citizens. And they’re not. They’re absolutely not. And so this isn’t a nice to do. It’s an imperative. It’s just such is why 51% of the population also. Sorry woman. Another point. This will make money for countries and businesses. So it’s not a vain idea. It’s something.

00:08:59:03 – 00:09:25:08
Edwina
That. No, not at handling economic motivation. Not at all. I just, last week or on the weekend, the Forbes list, where 50 women over 50 came out with actually 200 women, all in their, like, second act, you know, thriving in their second half of life. And the spending power of women in that age group is $15 trillion.

00:09:25:10 – 00:09:49:10
Edwina
I mean, wow. Yeah. So maybe that, you know, maybe numbers have an impact in that sense. Yeah. So I can see, of course. And I understand your frustration, but I’m always, you know, for the hope. And I think, you know where we are now, even though I’m sure you have been thriving for something else, we would not be there without you and trailblazing women like you.

00:09:49:12 – 00:09:56:05
Edwina
Thank you. So, what is your idea of perfect happiness?

00:09:56:07 – 00:10:34:07
Claudia
Oh, perfect. Well, perfect happiness as we know, is transitory. So we can be very, very happy for a moment. A day, maybe slightly longer, but it’s not a continuum. So the important thing to recognize is that happiness is that feeling that we get in between moments of frustration, anger, misery, striving, all of those things. So, perfect happiness, that moment of perfection?

00:10:34:09 – 00:11:00:08
Claudia
I would say I am very similar to millions of other women because I’m a mother. It has to involve my children, even though my children have grown up. And of course it has to involve my husband. Even though he can be annoying sometimes, as as we know, husbands can be, children too. But then.

00:11:00:10 – 00:11:02:14
Edwina
I just got to say.

00:11:02:16 – 00:11:33:18
Claudia
But it, you know, it would have to do with us being together. Feeling a moment of connectedness, of belonging together. And that is pure happiness. And I think it’s a common feeling that brings so many women together. And I know not everybody has a partner or is married. Not everybody has children. But, you know, it might be with friends rather than, theater.

00:11:33:20 – 00:11:36:15
Claudia
For most people, it’s about with others.

00:11:36:17 – 00:11:42:16
Edwina
Yeah. Which living person do you most admire?

00:11:42:18 – 00:12:20:09
Claudia
Oh, gosh. Oh, that again? That is. It’s really, really hard. I’m always fearful of mentioning politicians. The Queen has gone, bless her heart. Because otherwise I would pick the Queen. And I mean the old queen. Of course, we have Queen Camilla now, who is doing a marvelous job. I don’t know. I mean, I love all the women who are just pushing the boundaries of who they are.

00:12:20:11 – 00:12:46:00
Claudia
There is some women that I relate to a bit more. So, you know, I love Ava DuVernay. I love Meryl Streep. I love Michelle Obama. Yeah, there are lots of women I admire. But at the end of the day, there’s so much to admire in so many women. And I take what I can from each of them.

00:12:46:02 – 00:12:53:10
Edwina
Yeah. Well said. Thank you. Thank.

00:12:53:12 – 00:13:15:15
Edwina
So now, when you share with us your turning point, you said that it was really when you started your first job at a company called CCI, where you basically jumped into cold water and were exposed to the endless opportunities of data.

00:13:15:17 – 00:13:52:05
Claudia
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. I mean, I didn’t know it at the time, but I fortunately, the timing of me deciding on my first job, led me to this company, I think it was called California Analysis Centers Incorporated at the time a magnificent software consultancy. 2500 people. And little me arrived there thinking, well, this is exciting. And it was the beginning of the technology revolution, truthfully.

00:13:52:07 – 00:14:16:08
Claudia
And, I just landed in the best space with brilliant people. And I loved it from day one, and I, I still to this day, can’t believe how fortunate that I was to find myself in this organization. And just a tiny part of it setting up in the UK.

00:14:16:10 – 00:14:18:21
Edwina
And you met your husband there, correct.

00:14:18:23 – 00:14:44:10
Claudia
I yes I walked in, I he, he wasn’t my boss. Let me just be really clear. But on the first day I walked in I noticed him that me just put it that way. I found out he was with someone else at the time, so I put my enthusiasm in a little box and just got my head down and worked.

00:14:44:12 – 00:15:11:20
Claudia
We had a lot of fun. And, you know, I just learn so much when I was there and enjoyed every day. So it was really the first time I had felt like I bounced out of bed in the morning and couldn’t wait to go to work, and I never felt that all the way through school and education, it was always like, oh no, here we go.

00:15:11:22 – 00:15:17:05
Claudia
Work was like total enthusiasm right from the beginning. Yeah.

00:15:17:07 – 00:15:41:13
Edwina
Must have been very empowering. It. And then this whole enthusiasm around data management and finding out what people want, what people need predictability. Yeah. Then you mastered at Tesco and really revolutionized the customer service field. And that is so fascinating. You have to elaborate that a little bit.

00:15:41:15 – 00:16:17:00
Claudia
Yeah. So what we learned at, this first organization, CCI, was how to take very big data. Big data. It was cool back then. And compress it so that you could find meaningful patterns in it. And that was a new science. And we use something called cluster analysis. So what it does is it finds people who are similar to others and separate out those who are very different to other people.

00:16:17:01 – 00:16:43:07
Claudia
So you wind up with typologies, little cohorts of people who belong together, but a distinct from others. So you learn to classify people to, to to segment them if you like. So we created this type of language segmentation classification and profiling all the words that are now commonly used.

00:16:43:09 – 00:16:45:07
Edwina
Standard language. Yeah.

00:16:45:09 – 00:17:24:08
Claudia
But at the time had not ever been used in this context before. So where I started it was about describing who lives around a bank branch or around to retailer. How many people, what were they like? What were their demographics? You know, how did they get to work? All of those things helped retailers and banks to understand each branch and how different it was, and therefore what products and services to sell to that community, to offer to that community.

00:17:24:13 – 00:18:14:07
Claudia
So that was the beginning. The big change was when we recognize, gosh, if we can do this with data, that’s up to ten years old, which is the census data, because it was only refreshed every ten years. I wonder how powerful it would be if we used customer transaction data. And again, that had never been done before because technology was so expensive that each time someone sent out the bill like a, you know, telephone company, a mobile company or a bank or building society that’s out the bill, and then they’d put that data away and store it offline, which meant no one ever used it again.

00:18:14:09 – 00:18:48:05
Claudia
So it was kind of just existing without having any meaning or value. And we all we created in our new business when we started, it was this idea of how can you hold millions and millions of records with all the detailed transaction data in one place at one time, and the context you need for this is that spreadsheets just couldn’t handle this amount of data at that time.

00:18:48:07 – 00:19:21:06
Claudia
So technology and the software tools hadn’t kept pace with increasing volumes of data they have now, but not then. And so we built a tool set that effectively allowed us to bring all this data together. And that was the key because we were then ready. So when Tesco came to us and said, we have this very large data set and we can’t analyze it, but we’re really curious.

00:19:21:06 – 00:19:48:04
Claudia
We want to know if this concept of rewarding customers saying thank you to them for buying from us. We want to understand if that creates an uplift or not. Is it going to break us or is it going to make us. And now was really the key question. And so it was at that point we said yes we’ve got the tool set.

00:19:48:04 – 00:19:49:10
Claudia
We can do it.

00:19:49:12 – 00:20:14:18
Edwina
And now this is a tool that you know every brand thrives on. I mean customer rewarding programs. It’s like everybody uses it. It’s like being explored. Everybody’s in it collecting loyal points here, collecting loyal points. They’re making decisions on which credit card to sign up with because you evaluate what kind of perks you get from here. I mean, that basically all started with that, right?

00:20:14:22 – 00:20:16:01
Claudia
It did.

00:20:16:02 – 00:20:19:00
Edwina
Yeah. That is so fascinating.

00:20:19:02 – 00:20:52:08
Claudia
And what was interesting, though, loyalty at the most important thing that was so interesting was not just that we had the right capability at the right time, but the leader, the boss of Tesco, was modest enough to say this data for analysis, that you’ve done this understanding of my millions of customers is so powerful, it’s better than my instinct to my experience as a leader of 30 years.

00:20:52:10 – 00:21:16:00
Claudia
That modesty, that recognition that science and data can be more predictable than experience and sheer intellect. That is what made that moment so special because he said, I get it, I understand it. We cannot do it this way. And that was the turning point.

00:21:16:02 – 00:21:21:08
Edwina
That’s. Yeah that’s big. And really I mean it’s influencing us all still. Yeah.

00:21:21:09 – 00:21:22:08
Claudia
Yeah.

00:21:22:10 – 00:21:49:12
Edwina
So you then use basically this knowledge and technology and thought, how can you use it for women in the workplace also because you’ve been working up until then in the field as a woman that has really been completely male dominated. I mean, I’m sure that you can count on to hand the female colleagues that you must have had in those years.

00:21:49:14 – 00:22:08:16
Edwina
How was that working in, or did that not so matter so much? Because the content of the work was just so fascinating that that was what it was all about? Or was it that working in the male dominated environment led you to think about the female lead?

00:22:08:18 – 00:22:42:01
Claudia
So I interesting, I, I didn’t think about it so much at the time. I thought about the fact that every boardroom around the world that I walked into was male, totally male. So, I was dealing mostly with retailers and then some of the biggest, best CPGs, consumer products, goods companies around the world. So, you know, Unilever, Procter and Gamble, you know, I can’t think of any Kimberly-Clark.

00:22:42:03 – 00:23:20:06
Claudia
I mean, these are huge organizations with sophisticated marketing programs. So most of the organizations I was dealing with, you know, I would be the only woman in the room. And, yes, it feels strange. Yes. I think, again, what I found I was lucky with is that I was the only one doing what I was doing. So actually, they stopped seeing a woman, and they started seeing someone who knew how to do what they wanted.

00:23:20:08 – 00:23:52:08
Claudia
Because everybody who came to us said, we want to do a Tesco. We want to double our market share. We want to beat our competitors and make, you know, millions more than we’re making today. So then care if I was male or female, green or red? So, this was my opportunity and I kind of forgot about it too, and just talked with passion about what we’d done and what we could do.

00:23:52:10 – 00:24:24:14
Claudia
And I think that’s, you know, essentially what allowed me to operate in all these different markets and, and to deliver this capability because we didn’t just do it in the UK with Tesco, we actually almost did it bigger and better in the US and Canada, and France and Brazil and all around the world. So it was amazing.

00:24:24:16 – 00:24:54:06
Claudia
But you ask the question, what did I learn from that? And how did I translate? And so you’ll have to forgive me because there are two parts to this story. But part one was I had a very simple idea, which was, you know, when I was growing up and I was at school and afterwards, the women I would hear about were amazing, you know, Florence Nightingale, Marie Curie, Ada Lovelace.

00:24:54:08 – 00:25:25:05
Claudia
But I realized they were old and dead. Had a long time ago. And I thought, where are all the women today? Because all I heard about was Branson and, Dyson and now Musk. Bezos. Gates. ET cetera. So where are the women? So the first idea was a very simple pull, almost like a gift that I wanted to give back to say I’ve had a fantastic career.

00:25:25:07 – 00:25:51:21
Claudia
Thank you very much. And I wanted to gift role models to schoolgirls so that they could see that women are alive today doing amazing things, and they need to read about them and see them on film. So that was what I did. First, you know, I created these beautiful collections of women and gifted them to thousands of schools around the world.

00:25:51:23 – 00:26:20:18
Claudia
And I thought, you know, job done. There we go. That’s going to change everything. And then I realized maybe not. And, you know, women was saying to me, but it doesn’t get easier and it doesn’t get better. We’re not seen and we’re not heard. So then I realized there’s a much bigger problem to solve. And that’s when I thought, what can I use that I understand?

00:26:20:18 – 00:26:50:04
Claudia
And and I suddenly realized what we did at Dan Hamby, which was my business with my husband, was we showed that not all consumers are the same. They want and need different things. And that was the science we created. And that’s what made the extra money for the retailers, because by understanding what consumers want, you can give them what they want and, hey, how they spend more money.

00:26:50:06 – 00:27:21:19
Claudia
So he who does it well or she is doing it because they understand there’s differences. So I thought actually it’s really obvious women are not all the same. And actually increasingly women are changing. They are not getting married as early as some of them are deciding never to get married. It’s not, you know, just single relationships anymore.

00:27:21:21 – 00:27:50:00
Claudia
Women are delaying having children. A lot of women are breadwinners, and a lot of women, live longer and live on their own. And actually, quite often in some hardship. So there’s all these differences in women. And yet, as I look at how businesses and leaders describe women, it’s so simplistic. We are defined by our age and whether we’re married or not.

00:27:50:02 – 00:28:22:03
Claudia
That said, maybe if we have children, if they can find that out, that’s it. And it’s like we’re much more complicated than that. And so that’s really my focus for the female lead to show that the choice as a woman makes the life choices signal and trigger different needs and different behaviors. And it’s vital for for leaders to understand these differences.

00:28:22:05 – 00:28:26:06
Edwina
So you are gathering data really from all over the globe, right?

00:28:26:11 – 00:28:27:02
Claudia
Yes.

00:28:27:05 – 00:28:29:07
Edwina
It’s a huge international movement.

00:28:29:09 – 00:29:05:21
Claudia
Yes. What’s wonderful is the Women Trust us. They see us as a safe space. My sole purpose is to prove that women are worth a lot and a lot more than a lot of our male leadership currently recognizes. So women are the key buyers for most products everywhere in the world. So women may not earn all the money in the household, but they decide mostly how it’s spent.

00:29:05:23 – 00:29:33:20
Claudia
And this is a power that is never discussed, that women that, you know, women are in control of about 70% of all GDP. You know, in every country. And so why are leaders not recognizing that by understanding women better and all the things they’re missing. And one could be amazing.

00:29:33:22 – 00:29:57:15
Edwina
I mean I feel here and there it’s shaking and the old crusts are beginning to crumble. But when they do that, you have political movements in countries that are so conservative and so want to dial the clock back, and who are the first to target and who are the first to being diminished of, you know, fought riots. It’s the women.

00:29:57:15 – 00:30:19:01
Edwina
Yeah. And that’s why I really strongly believe that now more than ever, women have to stick together and fight for each other. And like all of us who are living in freedom, so to speak, and have this big privilege, really need to reach out and support and reach out a hand and lift up the ones that do not have this.

00:30:19:02 – 00:30:47:10
Edwina
Yeah, I mean, I just organized and curated a discussion and salon evening here with a think tank in New York, and we talked about women’s health and the research for this. I was just it really actually depressed me because I thought, this is unbelievable. I mean, women have always been under-researched under served under everything because we were diminished to like a few, 2 or 3 factors.

00:30:47:10 – 00:31:08:09
Edwina
Yeah. And now we see how multifaceted it is. And especially in women’s health and wellness. So yes, I think your frustration that you mentioned in the beginning, it’s just the motor that we, you know, keep being united and keep going and fighting. I mean, this is crucial.

00:31:08:11 – 00:31:35:23
Claudia
It is. It’s so important. Yeah. And and you we create the next generation. I mean, if we stop having babies, you know, if we just lie. Yeah. That’s not it’s too hard to have a baby and work, and it’s too hard to find good childcare and be the person we want to be. We stop having children and then the whole system falls over.

00:31:36:01 – 00:32:14:12
Claudia
So, it’s important that our needs are recognized because we are part of the continuation of society. Do you know one of the reasons they don’t test mice? Female mice. In, health studies is because those mice are too busy producing the next generation of mice for them to test on. And yeah, it’s not a nice thought, but it’s a job, isn’t it, to produce the next generation of mice to test on.

00:32:14:17 – 00:32:31:14
Claudia
And that’s you know and they don’t test on female. Right. The mice. And so women don’t get science and health solutions that suit their bodies and their, you know, their whole physiology.

00:32:31:16 – 00:33:12:05
Edwina
So you, an expert in data and empiric knowledge and making, you know, important decisions for business organizations on it, especially for women connected to the female lead. But you also believe in the personal story and the individual story. And that is something that I strongly believe in. And that’s why I’m, you know, have started this platform as a few years ago where I’m organizing salons, which are these smaller groups of women to get together and discuss and focus on a topic that is, you know, female related, but also can be general philosophical.

00:33:12:07 – 00:33:36:13
Edwina
And I always have this vision just to train our voice. Yeah. To train to speak out and to be heard and do it in a room with other women just to, you know, feel this connection. So how do you relate to these two different pillars but that are both so important in understanding women?

00:33:36:15 – 00:34:11:03
Claudia
Well, I think you express it very well, Claudia. I mean, I think stories hit our hearts. You know, they make us care. They make us notice. And we can ignore 100 or 1000 people more easily than we can ignore one powerful emotional story. You know, we can relate to that. But the combination of both, which is has one story or 2 or 3.

00:34:11:05 – 00:34:55:13
Claudia
But here is the quantitative analysis. Here are the thousand or the hundred thousand where and prove this is not an isolated thing. It allows us to show that there’s not only power in the stories, but power in the numbers. And you put those two together and I think that’s where it becomes very very hard to ignore. I one of the things we have to do and you might have thoughts on how to achieve this, is we have to get women to accept what they all believe.

00:34:55:13 – 00:35:36:19
Claudia
And because we’re very good at finding differences between cohorts of women. We often at times fall out or criticize or, you know, are quite damning of women in other situations. And I think the power we can achieve will come from us agreeing on, say, three overwhelmingly powerful concepts that all women believe in. And if we can stick to the and work towards those, I think we have a single multi million compelling voice.

00:35:36:21 – 00:35:39:15
Edwina
I’ll think about it. I get back to you.

00:35:39:17 – 00:35:41:09
Claudia
What. Great. Well great.

00:35:41:09 – 00:36:03:23
Edwina
Challenge. I love it. So as a very active and powerful leader in the second half of your life, how do you stay fit? What energizes you? How do you calm down? What’s the balance that you’ve found for yourself in this phase of life?

00:36:04:01 – 00:36:10:01
Claudia
I love that you call it my second half. That’s very generous of you, I like it.

00:36:10:03 – 00:36:32:16
Edwina
I mean, I don’t know, there’s so many terminologies around it, which I think is great. I mean, it’s second spring in Asia. The second half, it’s like second act. Third act, fourth act. Yeah. So it’s all about opportunity and progression. There’s no end to it. Yeah. And that’s what I love about it. Like I feel so unleashed. Yeah.

00:36:32:20 – 00:37:05:04
Claudia
Well it’s wonderful to hear. And you know, honestly I feel the same. I love reading other people’s work. I so I was lucky enough to meet Philippa Gregory, who’s written the most amazing book. It’s called Normal Women, and it’s 900 years of history of women in the world. Oh, I really recommend it. It is a work of magnitude and force and impact, and she is the most amazing woman.

00:37:05:04 – 00:37:50:17
Claudia
And it’s interesting. It’s not hard to read. It’s fascinating. And I’m consuming more and more brilliant works of women by women. You know, art, music of women and all of it makes me realize there’s no end to talent. It’s just the voice that we’re missing. It’s just having these stories told. But, you know, what keeps me, happy, motivated, excited is meeting amazing people who are all trying to change and have impact in some way.

00:37:50:19 – 00:38:19:05
Claudia
And enjoying their journey and their beliefs and having great conversations about it. I love it, and that’s what keeps me really motivated. And, I would love to say I’m also a champion skier or I’m a skydiver or something like that. But the reality is, I’m not. So my all my pursuits are very, very simple and quite gentle.

00:38:19:07 – 00:38:45:17
Claudia
I have beautiful God and I love my God. And I love, the sea and being on or near the sea. But other than that really, I just get excited about what others doing and how it can build and infuse me and inspire me to do more. And that’s what keeps me going.

00:38:45:19 – 00:38:56:07
Edwina
Beautiful. Well, the last thing I want to mention is this year you published your latest book, When She’s in the Room. And what’s next?

00:38:56:09 – 00:39:29:14
Claudia
Well, when She’s in the room is all about my journey, on data and with stories exactly as you’ve described, lived to change and transform our world as women. And so what’s next is for me to bring this life and to get millions of people to take the survey that we promote in the book and also online. It’s called Fulfill Men Finder.

00:39:29:16 – 00:39:59:11
Claudia
It takes about seven minutes. And when you do the survey, it allows you to, find out what your emotional drive is all. So what are the things that make you uniquely you? And what are your sort of, like, superpowers? And so Fulfillment Finder will give you these and will give you your persona, which we’ve found to be incredibly accurate.

00:39:59:13 – 00:40:24:14
Claudia
Men can do it as well, but they’re just described as a woman. But it works just as well for men. Yeah. So my ambition is that everybody takes fulfillment finder, and we start to think about the sense of fulfillment, perhaps more than happiness, because happiness is transitory. But fulfillment is a life well-lived.

00:40:24:16 – 00:40:38:17
Edwina
Well that’s a beautiful rounded ending of our conversation today. Again I’m so grateful that you spent this time with me. And I wish you a wonderful rest of the summer.

00:40:38:19 – 00:40:43:10
Claudia
Thank you so much Claudia. It’s been an absolute joy and privilege.

00:40:43:12 – 00:40:57:23
Edwina
Thank you. Bye bye.

00:40:58:01 – 00:41:31:18
Edwina
What a fascinating journey of a true pioneer. And it’s interesting how Edwina conquered a professional field traditionally assigned to men through her expertise and knowledge. The way she talked about data got me really hooked. She really is a role model. And no wonder the female lead is such an impactful organization and a source for 8 million women.

00:41:31:20 – 00:41:58:10
Edwina
A Shift happens, has been created and is hosted by me, Claudia Mahler, editing, Andy Boroson. Social media. Magda Reckendrees. I hope you felt connected and heard by listening to Shift Happens, and please leave a review and a rating wherever you listen to podcasts.